From: "Bonate, Peter"
Subject: [NMusers] SAS vs S-Plus Date: Wed, December 8, 2004 2:35 pm I guess it's time to stir up the pot a bit. While I agree with Mike Fossler that every modeler should learn a higher-order programming language (and there are many: S-Plus, IML in SAS, Matlab, Gauss, O-matrix), I disagree that S-plus should be the language of choice. Matlab, Gauss, and O-matrix are useful but they all suffer in that statistical analyses are not easily implemented. In the case of Matlab and O-matrix additional modules must be purchased to do any kind of statistical analysis so they aren't really useful for what we do. Also, they don't do mixed effects modeling. So really it comes down to SAS and S-plus. S-plus early on became the program of choice because it had better graphics, it still does over SAS, and has some procedures like GAM that SAS did not. However, the analysis gap has closed - both offer nonlinear mixed effects models, GAM analysis, etc. They are virtually the same. S-plus still has the edge graphics wise. However, of all the programming languages I have studied, S-plus is one of the craziest and not the most easy to learn. SAS is far easier to learn and has the advantage in the all statistical analyses in support of an NDA will be done within SAS. Most companies have a site license for SAS and so using it will not cost a department much, if anything. S-plus is a couple of thousand dollars. I also have to say that SAS has the regulatory edge in terms of acceptance over S-plus. Comments? Pete Peter L. Bonate, PhD, FCP Director, Pharmacokinetics ILEX Oncology 4545 Horizon Hill Blvd San Antonio, TX 78229 phone: 210-949-8662 fax: 210-949-8219 email: email@example.com _______________________________________________________ From: "Bachman, William (MYD)" firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: RE: [NMusers] $A$ vs S-Plus Date: Wed, December 8, 2004 3:05 pm You forgot the biggest one - cost. Only major pharma can afford to implement it across the board. S-Plus is affordable, R is free. William J. Bachman, Ph.D. Manager, Pharmacometrics Research and Development GloboMax® The Strategic Pharmaceutical Development Division of ICON plc 7250 Parkway Drive, Suite 430 Hanover, MD 21076 410-782-2212 email@example.com _______________________________________________________ From: "Sam Liao" firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: RE: [NMusers] $A$ vs S-Plus Date: Wed, December 8, 2004 3:50 pm Hi Bill and nmv users: I would like to ask if any S-Plus or R users in this group know of any function to use in solving differential equations in PKPD models. I prefer to use S-Plus in Monte Carlo simulation of PKPD models. But, so far only limited to models with explicit functions. Sam PharMax Research _______________________________________________________ From: "Pravin Jadhav" email@example.com Subject: Re: [NMusers] $A$ vs S-Plus Date: Wed, December 8, 2004 4:55 pm Sam and others, R has nlmeODE package developed by Christoffer Tornoe that allows one to write differential equations and tie-up with NLME. However, as I understand NLME in R has not been updated for long time compared to NLME in S-Plus (supported by Insightful). Joga and his group is developing a website that will have various kinds of NONMEM codes as well as R codes(to the extent possible) used in PK -PD modeling. About the other discussion, choice of softwares will differ between users. I agree that S-Plus is limited by the memory requirement but I hardly had a problem. There are ways to make codes more efficient. Also, I find S-Plus very flexible for running simple models because all the traditional diagnostic plots and random effects versus covariates plots etc. can be created by ONE line code. my 2cents. Pravin _______________________________________________________